Thread: Basic Tenets of Capitalism

One thing that the capitalist theoreticians never seem to get is that just as individuals are discouraged from good decision making when the costs or rewards of their decisions are socialized among everyone, communities and societies are discouraged from good decision making when the costs or rewards of THEIR decisions are socialized among all groups of people.

The idea that a person who works hard to buy a house should have to let some alcoholic bum stay there because "he wants a better life" would be (correctly) thought absurd, but the idea that a society which works hard to build a prosperous country should let a society which made the wrong choices absorb part of that society's rewards under the same rationale is considered the height of "freedom" and "principle" by the Libertarian crowd.

(Besides some of the harder-nosed ones, I guess.)

Good thread topic Mr. Sap; Hopefully we can have some more members weigh in. The current economic system we find ourselves trapped within is NOT capitalism. The foundational elements required for a free enterprise based system are HONEST MONEY and ABSOLUTE private property rights, including the right to keep what one earns. Fiat currency, income taxes & property taxes have destroyed the free enterprise system long ago.

Originally Posted by Nathan B. Forrest

Good thread topic Mr. Sap; Hopefully we can have some more members weigh in. The current economic system we find ourselves trapped within is NOT capitalism. The foundational elements required for a free enterprise based system are HONEST MONEY and ABSOLUTE private property rights, including the right to keep what one earns. Fiat currency, income taxes & property taxes have destroyed the free enterprise system long ago.

I hope others discuss this too.

I've been observing other forums of many various political leanings, even ones I completely disagree with. There are some very different perspectives out there and regardless if I don't agree I still appreciate learning what others think.

Originally Posted by Kingsnake

One thing that the capitalist theoreticians never seem to get is that just as individuals are discouraged from good decision making when the costs or rewards of their decisions are socialized among everyone, communities and societies are discouraged from good decision making when the costs or rewards of THEIR decisions are socialized among all groups of people.

2011 Permanent Fund Dividend is $1,174

September 20, 2011, Anchorage, Alaska - Governor Sean Parnell today announced that 647,549 eligible Alaskans will receive a 2011 Permanent Fund Dividend in the amount of $1,174. According to the Department of Revenue, 676,000 Alaskans applied for the 2011 Dividend. This represents a one percent increase over 2010 applications.

This year marks the 30th dividend paid to Alaskans. The total potential distribution of Permanent Fund Dividends to date is $33,365.41 per person, which does not include the $1,200 Alaska Resource Rebate distributed in 2008. Following the 2011 dividend payment, the total funds disbursed to Alaskans by the division, including the Resource Rebate, since inception of the dividend program will total approximately $19 billion.

Some consider this a socialist program. This is clearly a redistribution of oil companies earnings.

Since the establishment of the Alaska Permanent Fund thirty-five years ago and with its redistribution of wealth from the oil companies to the Alaskan people can it be said that good decisions regarding Alaska's oil production, refinery and transportation have been discouraged because a librarian or a cook in Fairbanks received a dividend check? I don't believe so.

I agree that capitalist theoreticians do not get a lot of things.

Originally Posted by Nathan B. Forrest

Good thread topic Mr. Sap; Hopefully we can have some more members weigh in. The current economic system we find ourselves trapped within is NOT capitalism. The foundational elements required for a free enterprise based system are HONEST MONEY and ABSOLUTE private property rights, including the right to keep what one earns. Fiat currency, income taxes & property taxes have destroyed the free enterprise system long ago.

The problem with income taxes is that gazillionares are keeping their money offshore. Another issue is all of this money sitting in tax-free foundations. This has to stop as well. Anytime the politicos start talking about taxing the rich, what really happens is that they end up sucking the life out of the middle class.

Big business is getting too big and too powerful. They contribute way too much campaign funding relative to the working classes. Big business has become so powerful that they are getting laws altered to benefit them at the expense of small business and the working classes. They have basically empty offshore offices in tax havens that bill the local corporation for consulting/engineering/management etc in order to keep their income taxes in their country of (real) business at a minimum. Whenever they begin to have financial difficulties,they are now suddenly "too big to fail" and get taxpayer-funded bailouts.

One definition of fascism is the "merger of government with big business". We are there. They do not give a damn about the working class. They just want keep importing their endless streams of third world cheap labour to increase their customer base and keep wages down. By controlling all political parties with donations, it is hard for the people to have a voice politically. Anyone who complains about immigration is smeared as a a Naziwhowantstokillsixmillionjews by the bought off Zionist media who are beholden to their advertisers.

Originally Posted by Nathan B. Forrest

Good thread topic Mr. Sap; Hopefully we can have some more members weigh in. The current economic system we find ourselves trapped within is NOT capitalism. The foundational elements required for a free enterprise based system are HONEST MONEY and ABSOLUTE private property rights, including the right to keep what one earns. Fiat currency, income taxes & property taxes have destroyed the free enterprise system long ago.

Yes taxation is too high and as Silver Stallion correctly points out the middle class bears the brunt, while tax-free foundations, tax havens and loopholes are increasingly used by extremely wealthy individuals to avoid the taxman.

Even during the trying experience of the CSA from 1861 through 1865 and under the leadership of President Jefferson Davis the following taxes were imposed: license duties, a progressive income tax, consumption taxes that included excise taxes and sales taxes, and tariffs. There was also a tax that collected in the form (tax-in-kind) of livestock and agricultural produce.


"In Support of a Tax-in-Kind" Richmond Examiner editorial April 3, 1863

"…Let us endeavor to explain in a word what is meant by a tax in kind. It signifies the payment to the Government of a certain portion of all that the labor or property of the citizen produces…without its previous conversion into money.… The producer would make a direct gain by paying his tax in produce, without changing it into the shape of money.… The Government would receive this great benefit and advantage from a tax in kind: that it would then be able to stop the issue of new Treasury notes.… The articles of produce received as the tax of producers would supply the chief, if not the entire consumption of its troops; and what remained of cotton, tobacco, and the like would be so much cash in its hands to purchase in Europe the means of war. The printing presses which now deluge the land with oceans of paper money which commerce does not require, would rest.…

To such a tax it will be objected that it is cumbrous, inconvenient, and that it cannot be collected by the ordinary agencies which collect the tax money. But it will be discovered that it requires no machinery or operation which the Government is not already obliged to ha[v]e, to supply itself with the necessaries of a vast army in a blockaded country, where interior transportation by individuals has become nearly impossible. The Government has only to unite the agencies which collect the money tax with those which gather the supplies of its armies, and it possesses all the machinery necessary to ascertain and collect a tax in kind."

I just Rep'ed this post from Silver Stallion: Simply Outstanding!

We are not, and should not be capitalists. Marx espoused communism and deceitfully denounced capitalism to steer us into it. We thought, "If that awful Marx is a communist and he hates capitalism, then, by golly, we must be capitalists!"

This is from a thread a few months ago, post 18: Nearly One in Five Recent Grads Out of Work

Originally Posted by Smedley Butler

Today, we live in a hyper-ruthless, Jewish-inspired version of capitalism. We used to have jobs for college graduates, but cut-throat corporations have out-sourced them and there's no getting them back unless we get to the root of the problem.

http://mikefolkerth.com/2009/10/06/c...ee-enterprise/
When I tell people that capitalism and free enterprise are not the same thing, I typically get a deer-in-the-headlights look, followed by a clearly articulated “Huh?” But they are not the same thing, and that is the subject of this piece.

Capitalism requires growth. Free enterprise does not. Capitalism can only be satisfied by “more.” Free enterprise can be satisfied by “enough.” Free enterprise can go on forever. Capitalism cannot.

Free enterprise means that I am free to set up my own enterprise, say a general store, and the Federal Agents will not come knocking at midnight. As long as my expenses do not exceed my revenues, my enterprise can continue indefinitely without the need to increase my net worth.

Free enterprise requires freedom, but it does not require accumulation, or growth.

Capitalism, on the other hand, requires a return on investment (ROI). It requires me to accumulate ever more capital. If I invest $100, by the end of the year, I had better realize a minimum of $106. If I don’t, then my investment became negative, as the very roots of capitalism are planted in inflation.

If I reinvest my $106, I must receive $113 the next year. This must continue forever, or else the capitalist system will fail. This is closely related to the concept of compound interest. This also requires an exponential increase in the money supply, which eventually becomes impossible to balance with the physical system of available resources.

The real difference then, is this; capitalism requires accumulation while free enterprise does not. Capitalism also requires external inputs, often coming from Peter where Paul is the capitalist. “Those who rob Peter to pay Paul, can always count on Paul for support” ─ George Bernard Shaw

“Growth” must come from an expansion of the money supply, resulting in the dilution of the value of the currency (inflation). Capitalism and free enterprise are not mutually exclusive. In fact, capitalism usually rides on the back of free enterprise making them appear as one.

Capitalism thus requires infinite growth. Since we live on a finite planet, this is clearly impossible. Eventually something has to give. It is not a matter of if, but only a matter of when. To believe otherwise is to believe in magic. When I was a child, compound interest seemed like magic to me. Yet any professional magician will tell you that magic is not really magic, but merely an illusion. Similar to capitalism.

The characteristics of capitalism are the characteristics of the weed: overshoot and die-off. Before the weed dies it shoots out consumerism, imperialism, and planned obsolescence. These are meant to delay the demise of the weed but in the end, when it has exhausted its resources, the weed dies anyway. Capitalism must, in the end, consume its own host society. The result of practicing unchecked capitalism in the U.S. is currently consuming our Middle Class.

We have all seen those movies where the crew of a steamship, when the coal is gone, rips up the decks to feed the boilers. It is clear to everyone that this can only go on for so long as there are decks to rip up. A steadily increasing return on investment, which is the very essence of capitalism, can only have a similar result. The poor people on the steamship may be hopeful of rescue by another ship. On Spaceship Earth, I do not think we can count on being rescued by, or making landfall on another planet.

So it comes back to my initial comparison of capitalism and free enterprise. Free enterprise means, quite literally, freedom. Freedom to try, freedom to succeed, and freedom to fail.

Capitalism (sorry, Dr. Friedman) does not mean freedom. It means slavery to the demands of return on investment; of never ending growth. Carried to its logical conclusion, in our present time it probably means turning into a society that might be characterized as high-tech feudalism.

Free enterprise is a shopkeeper, capitalism is a banker. With free enterprise, we can own our wealth. With capitalism, our wealth will wind up owning us. That is the real difference. And that is our choice.

From that same thread, I posted this:

Consider how we have been duped into being "good Capitalists." Karl Marx wrote the Communist Manifesto in 1848. Mid-1800s Europe experienced many communist revolutions and uprisings, which of course unsettled the European ruling elites and traditional academics. So naturally, our side, the European elites, became opposed to the jewish-led communists. In a stroke of diabolical genius, Marx then wrote, in 1867, Das Kapital, in which he railed against the evils of the capitalist system. We fell into the old trap of supporting whatever it was that our enemy opposed (at least on the surface), and become ardent capitalists in opposition to the communist economic system. Now of course, we had already had capitalism through the Rothschild and other jewish banks for centuries, but after this time all Western non-communist nations became increasingly capitalist at the expense of the White free enterprise systems that we had used before.

So we had (and still have to a degree), capitalist jews on one side of the aisle and communist jews on the other side of the aisle - two sides that were diametrically opposed to each other. Except that the dividing aisle was fake and under both systems jews consolidated their power on Western nations. Now, after the fall of communism - which came about largely due to jews sucking the wealth out of our communist nations (look who the Oligarchs are in Russia) - the former communist nations look to capitalism as a great counterbalance to their oppressive state-controlled economies under communism. But the only reason that capitalism outlasted communism is that there were still many elements of free enterprise in Western capitalism, allowing White ingenuity to create wealth relatively unhindered (Those elements are, of course, being eliminated through taxes and regulations as the globalists consolidate their power). So all of the former communist White nations ran away from the jewish-communist monster straight into the jewish-capitalist debt monster.

None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free.
Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

Essential viewing, IMHO, if we are to understand the capitalist system by which we are all enslaved:

Just thought I'd mention that Dr Sunic (VOR) this very evening is having someone on to discuss capitalism. Sounds interesting. I tuned in late though.

"The Federal Government is sending each of us a $US600 rebate.
"If we spend that money at Wal-Mart, the money goes to China. If we spend it on gasoline, it goes to the Arabs.
"If we buy a computer it will go to India.
"If we purchase fruit and vegetables it will go to Mexico, Honduras and Guatemala.
"If we purchase a good car it will go to Germany.
"If we purchase useless crap it will go to Taiwan and none of it will help the American economy," he opined.
"The only way to keep that money here at home is to spend it on prostitutes and beer, since these are the only products still produced in US.

Prostitutes and beer in US | thetelegraph.com.au

Capitalism, if used in a responsible manner, can be a good thing. After all, money does indeed make the world go round.

Originally Posted by Nathan B. Forrest

Good thread topic Mr. Sap; Hopefully we can have some more members weigh in. The current economic system we find ourselves trapped within is NOT capitalism. The foundational elements required for a free enterprise based system are HONEST MONEY and ABSOLUTE private property rights, including the right to keep what one earns. Fiat currency, income taxes & property taxes have destroyed the free enterprise system long ago.

Excellent post N.B.F. as always,right over the target. What happened to the vision and dream of our ancestors who came from europe to the new world? We were warned many times about the threat of the banksters and their motives, by the mid 1800's with the arrival of Marx and Darwin, the international elitists had the tools to tear down and create the socialist plutocracy we now look at every single day. Once america was full of inventors, creators of products,now, sadly, everyone is in debt up to their eyeballs, with little time or incentive to create product. Paper wealth created by debt and out of thin air,is not sustainable. Watch this video:

Please read post 9 of this thread. Capitalism and Free Enterprise are two different systems, although capitalism exists as a parasite within free enterprise.

The film I posted Money as Debt reaches the same conclusion that you did: basically that we need liquidity and an easy means of transferring wealth between one another.

The problem with capitalism is that money (and therefore debt, and debt IS slavery) must continue to multiply or the capitalist system collapses. Or, if you allow the money supply to continue to grow, more people and nations become indebted to bankers, and the system still collapses in hyperinflation.

Originally Posted by Mitza the Lithuanian

Capitalism, if used in a responsible manner, can be a good thing. After all, money does indeed make the world go round.

Capitalism def.: Economic system in which the means of production are privately owned and operated for profit, usually in competitive markets. wikipedia

Free Enterprise def.: Business governed by the laws of supply and demand, not restrained by government interference, regulation or subsidy. also called free market.
What is free enterprise? definition and meaning

NBF Comment: Capitalism & Free Enterprise are not mutually exclusive. A TRUE (honest money based) capitalist system can only exist in a Free Enterprise environment, FREE of government coercion & influence.

IMHO, the system we are trapped within currently is a type of Fascism, specifically
Multinational Corporate-Fascism.
'The Fascist conception of the State is all-embracing; outside of it no human or spiritual values can exist. Thus understood, Fascism is totalitarian, and the Fascist State interprets, develops, and potentiates the whole life of a people.' (From 'The Doctrine of Fascism', Gentile/Mussolini)

Capitalism is about profit and loss, when you bail out the losers, there's no end to the cost.

Originally Posted by Enoch

Capitalism is about profit and loss, when you bail out the losers, there's no end to the cost.

You give an excellent single sentence summary. +1 Thanks!